Datagrids and screeners proliferate across financial markets - and are often at the center of how market participants engage with data and make decisions. But research suggests that users struggle to get results from the tools they are using due to a wide variety of issues. The result - investors don’t get to the end of their stock or fund selection process - and fail to rebalance or trade. Institutional investors don’t generate the ideas that lead to outperformance, or bankers fail to spot the next IPO or M&A opportunity.
Fundamentally, screeners are tools that enable users to make data-driven decisions in a transparent and understandable way. The inputs are a combination of hard facts (the data) and assumptions and/or criteria. But the ability of the tool to deliver good results is largely driven by the usability of the tool, as it is inherently a human interface to potentially large and complex data.
Unlike other data analytics solutions, screeners typically lack comprehensive statistical analysis of the underlying data, unless such measures are already included in the data. Screeners are largely numeric, but can also include non-numeric data. The data is often sourced from multiple data sets.
Screeners also suffer from usability challenges - with antiquated designs, inflexibility, and poor interoperability. Meanwhile, the very act of touching the product can trigger the need to implement new and more stringent accessibility standards that at best are hard to interpret, and at worst almost impossible to apply to a grid or screener use case!
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Laura Smith: Okay? Well, thank you. Everyone for attending today's webinar. We have a great lineup of speakers the title of today's Webinar is unit user centered screeners, balancing accessibility and effectiveness. Before we get started, I just wanted to go over a few housekeeping items. We will be recording today's session, and if you have if you want to link to the recording, I'll be sending one at in the next few days. Also feel free
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Laura Smith: to ping anybody here or myself, and I'll be happy to get access to that. If you have any questions, please feel free to use the QA. Box at the bottom of your screen? We'll be happy to answer them. Live or do a. QA. At the end.
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Laura Smith: And if you have any issues with your zoom or anything during the meeting, feel free to ping me the host, Laura Smith, I will be happy to assist with that I'll go ahead and hand this over to Tim Baker. He'll be the host of the Webinar today. We hope you enjoy the session. We're excited about it.
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Tim Baker: Great thanks, Laura. And yeah, I think it's going to be really informative, but hopefully you know, provoke some discussion as well, I'm really delighted to have one of our newest and most important clients on the call, so we've got 2
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Tim Baker: 2 of our partners from Bmo, and we've got our head of our head of products as well, and we'll do an intros in a minute just quickly. If you can go to the next slide, Chris, the mandatory, infomercial.
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Tim Baker: and just a bit of background on Xpero. We're a very well established software, consulting business, and we deliver solutions across complex domains where really complexity can be a combination of data and workflow and analytics.
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Tim Baker: In really, some of the most demanding areas of finance. I lead the finance services. Practice and, as I say, Expo has been in business over 20 years and building full stack applications. Using scalable frameworks. If you can go to the next slide, Chris.
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Tim Baker: The slides up.
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Laura Smith: Yup, just a quick technical difficulty. I'm he joined. Okay.
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Tim Baker: So yeah, we've we build full staff applications on scalable platforms. But actually, over the years, we've seen a lot of similar repeating patterns.
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Tim Baker: And so we've developed an accelerator which you'll hear more about. And that accelerator we call connected finance.
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Tim Baker: And that's really been one of the major enablers for this project.
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Tim Baker: So we serve clients, as I say, across many segments. But financial services is about half the business. We have clients in the wealth space, and in this case this is a wealth use case we're going to be talking about. But we also have many use cases in asset management in banking and trading
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Tim Baker: as well as Amc. And risk
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Tim Baker: so I think, Chris, I'm on the
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Tim Baker: second slide. Maybe.
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Chris LaCava: Sorry about that.
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Tim Baker: No worries. So that's our, that's our partner. So this is our our kind of process.
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Tim Baker: Just go to the next slide.
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Tim Baker: There we go. So these are the segments across finance that we work in. And as I mentioned, wealth is a really key key focus area. And that's in part because of our new partnership with Morningstar. So we've been helping Morningstar and their clients migrate onto a new front end tech stack.
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Tim Baker: and we've been deploying our connected framework as a way to to implement
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Tim Baker: a set of new capabilities, including screeners and chart views and portfolio analytics. They've been a great partner, and Bmo is one of our 1st clients to to leverage that that partnership.
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Tim Baker: So if you'd like to know more about what we do at Xpera, obviously just jump on the Internet and find us or reach out directly to me.
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Tim Baker: Can you go to the next slide? Chris?
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Chris LaCava: Sure.
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Tim Baker: So before we kind of kick off, I want to provide a little bit of a grounding.
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Tim Baker: it. It occurs to us on the on the prep call, and not everyone knows what a screener is, because not everyone comes from from a finance background. It's very much a kind of finance.
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Tim Baker: finance, terminology,
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Tim Baker: screeners basically are specialized tables or grids. The male, the main goal of a screener
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Tim Baker: is to enable users to filter and sort through extensive amounts of data to find answers to specific
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Tim Baker: queries or criteria.
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Tim Baker: So, for example, if you're an investor
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Tim Baker: and you've got a large set of table on. Say, the Russell 3,000.
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Tim Baker: You might be interested in looking for large cap growth stocks with a PE below a certain number. Maybe it's being, you know you want to look at. You know, firms that have underperformed over a period so that criteria, that multi level criteria is what you would put into a screener.
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Tim Baker: and if you're lucky, you know, it would give you maybe 30 or 40 results. Assuming that you managed to figure out what numbers to plug into the screener.
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Tim Baker: So simple, you might think. But users often get lost in that process. We did quite a bit of research 18 months ago, looking at all the different types of retail screeners out there for mutual funds and and securities.
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Tim Baker: And they're all pretty kind of confusing and difficult to to use. So we've really attempted to address a lot of those issues in in what we'll take you through.
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Tim Baker: So when you think about it, screeners really are everywhere. They're on trading floors. They're on retail websites. They're on wealth advisor platforms, banker desktops. But they, you know, many of them, have been implemented in Excel.
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Tim Baker: you know, on websites and dedicated applications.
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Tim Baker: so there's lots and lots of varieties and approaches. But they're really all aim to kind of get to some actionable insights. Everyone wants to be able to get down to a manageable list
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Tim Baker: of securities or recommendations or actionable insights that they can then go to the next level.
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Tim Baker: So that's my kind of preamble.
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Tim Baker: So what I want to do is get everyone involved now. So why don't we very quickly start with with intros, and then we'll go into
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Tim Baker: You know the body of the presentation. So so, Chris and Ruben, why don't we start with you if you can tell us a little bit about your background what you do at Bm, at Bmo.
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Tim Baker: and really kind of what's your interest in this topic?
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Chris Danells: Sure. I'm happy to lead Chris Daniels, I'm a director of agile development supporting delivery for client platforms
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Chris Danells: in our wealth management area within Bmo, so service lines of business, such as traditional private wealth.
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Chris Danells: hybrid advice, robo advice, and then
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Chris Danells: direct investing slash, discount brokerage. That's the dirty, dirty descriptor, and sort of work extensively with tools such as screeners and and partners, such as Xpero.
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Chris Danells: Really, what we want to do is equip clients with you know, means to identify investment opportunities that align with what they're they're hoping to achieve. And you know Ruben and myself will touch on this as we go through it. You know there's some intricacies and and factors to balance the range of personalities, range of knowledge. Within your client base that you're trying to service. And so it's striking the right right balance and making something that's that's
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Chris Danells: be more bespoke and differentiated from what somebody can get on a 3rd party site. They rule within within.
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Chris Danells: you know, our platforms. And when we develop user experiences, we don't want people leaving right? We keep people somewhat captive to the experience, and ensuring that we can fulfill all those needs
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Chris Danells: within their within the client site, I'll turn over to Ruben to just give a a brief intro.
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Ruben: Thanks, Chris. My name is Ruben Maytarge, and I'm a product designer for Bmo. I'm part of the wealth team working on the investor line product, self-directed advice direct. And
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Ruben: I primarily work with lots of tables. So screeners are right in my wheelhouse. Fundamentally.
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Ruben: we think about the user journey from a product perspective.
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Ruben: And, you know, having our users be captive to some of our services is really integral to the business. But also it's about providing value from a user experience perspective. If our client wants to find specific information to execute a trade, make real financial progress, etc. And we really have to get into their mindset, and dig into that, to execute properly.
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Tim Baker: Great thanks, Ruben. Crystal, Carva! What do you do at Xpero?
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Chris LaCava: Lots of stuff. I had
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Chris LaCava: the product group at Xpero, including the connected platform, which is the solution
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Chris LaCava: foundation that we built a lot of the financial tools on top of including the the screener and the sets of components that that Bmo is currently using.
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Tim Baker: Great thanks, Chris. So so back to to, I'm gonna start calling you Christy now, just so I can be more specific. So Bmo. A lot of people might not know who Bmo are actually as a firm. I've I've I've known Bmo as a as a customer and a partner for many years. But do you want to just explain what part of the business you're in? And then, Bmo, I think really kind of a global bank. Now you bought a lot of assets in in the Us. And you've been expanding. But which part of
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Tim Baker: a Bmo, are you at? And then, if you can then talk a little bit more about investor line. That's the product that we've been working together on. What are some of the, you know, the the typical sorry, the the bigger goals that you have, and some of the you know where you're trying to drive that part of the business.
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Chris Danells: Yeah, I'm sure. Happy to happy to explain. So Bmo is the oldest bank in Canada. We are a global enterprise. I work within the digital digital platforms area of Bmo wealth management. So again, going back, we have private wealth client platforms that we support and build upon. Investor line is an umbrella of really kind of 3, 3 flavors of digital digital investing. There's Diy direct investing.
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Chris Danells: We have a very unique product called Vice direct, which is a blend of traditional advice with digital diy
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Chris Danells: capabilities. Right? So providing clients with all the guardrails, suitability checks, and notifications that an advisor would have, you know, face to face, but enabling them to pull the trigger, so to speak, with all trades and decisions through. Digital.
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Chris Danells: and then we have a product called smartfolio.
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Chris Danells: which is traditional robo advice. So manage platforms at a discount, professionally managed, and the portfolios perform well the main interface. The main product.
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Chris Danells: Besides, the portfolios themselves is the platform, and so very different in terms of the use cases, I'd say, across all 3 investor line, self directed, we think
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Chris Danells: when it comes to somebody who's kind of launched out into the world or equipped
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Chris Danells: feeling they're equipped to make decisions on their own they still need kind of research and guidance, and
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Chris Danells: to his discovery tools.
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Chris Danells: And it's where partners such as Xpero come into play. You know we are not in the business or experts in terms of taking financial data and doing very simple intuitive articulations that is best done elsewhere. We know our clients, and it's best for us to work with partners such as yourself
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Chris Danells: kind of articulate. What the use cases are that we're trying to manage what we're hoping our you know what our clients are hoping to achieve and the problems that they're looking to solve. And so then we partner, and and through. What I'd say is design connects between.
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Chris Danells: you know, our Bmo folk, Rubin being one of them, and then members on Christa's team. We kind of really refine what could be just be off the shelf and make it a little bit more more nuanced and bespoke for for the investor line audience, and is important as well as the entry into and out of, and the and the overall integration of these tools within a workflow. So
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Chris Danells: Ruben mentioned, you know, getting inside a client's heads, understanding. Where in the journey? Where do they begin? Kind of the discovery journey? Kind of what's the next best or next expected action. Once they start kind of going down.
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Chris Danells: Going down this path. All that kind of filters into kind of design discussions, and ultimately manifests itself in in what we.
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Chris Danells: what we put out to market.
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Tim Baker: And that that you know, as a retail investor myself. Self directed Investor. You know I've I use a number of platforms, not yours. But but I have to say a lot of those journeys quite often are very fragmented, so you'll be you'd be doing one thing over here. You'll find a security. And suddenly you're over here, and maybe the look and feel is different, because that was built by someone else or another firm.
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Chris Danells: Correct. Yeah, it's it's a real challenge. So I think, even when you look at the construct of most sites, they are still very much siloed. You have holdings, you have research, you have, you know, services and documents.
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Chris Danells: There's not. There are companies that do a very good job of blending. And I'd say, doing cross integration in the limit. Really, what we want to get to is having our clients kind of customize what their dashboard looks like providing them. What I'd say is a bespoke kind of I'd say workflow or dashboard with which to to kind of manage their accounts, that we're moving in those directions.
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Chris Danells: And you know, in the interim, when we do bring in new tools, we just want to be thoughtful about. You know, how are we moving towards that? Are we? Are we breaking down silos? Are we doing contextual? Are we? Are we meeting people where they're at within the digital journey. I think that's 1 of the the critical factors that we always think about. We want to make sure it's it feels like there's a flow to it versus like this kind of
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Chris Danells: what I'd say is harsh. Jump out of an experience or mindset is it's a real challenge. Yeah.
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Tim Baker: Yeah. And so, Ruben, you know, I know that you you think a lot about design and workflow and connecting those things together. What? What are some of the design, the kind of high level design considerations that you have when you're thinking about that.
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Ruben: Well, fundamentally, we really try to adhere to this one client. One view, philosophy, which
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Ruben: you know to Chris's point, means that when a user or client is going from page to page, product to product. They have a very familiar frame of reference that really removes a lot of friction in the user experience and so on. A technical level staying aligned with other designers having a source of truth. Documentation is really really crucial, and the communication
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Ruben: collaboration is absolutely paramount.
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Chris Danells: Yeah. And and I think, Ruben, you just alluded to it. We have developed a a proprietary design system which does help kind of, I'd say, grease the wheels, so to speak, when it comes to user flow and workflow within the site. You know, we we are really thinking of things in a continuum versus kind of discrete, unique
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Chris Danells: kind of product.
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Ruben: And it's really about making the entire system as scalable and flexible as possible. Right? When you create a bedrock that is consistent
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Ruben: and is scalable, modular. You're
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Ruben: you're actually decreasing the amount of effort for other designers. While also addressing the needs of our users in reducing that cognitive load.
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Chris Danells: 100%.
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Tim Baker: So it sounds like you've designed you. You've you've you've solved for some of the challenges that you have in terms of well working with vendors, and actually in, you know, with your internal teams, instead of
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Tim Baker: by having standards, by having, you know, a design schema
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Tim Baker: what are some of the other challenges.
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Tim Baker: And you know where I'm going to go with this around accessibility, but also running running a, you know, a client facing tech
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Tim Baker: product in Canada. Can you just kind of allude to some of those specific issues? And then we'll talk about how we've collectively started to solve for them.
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Chris Danells: Sure, Ruben, you want me to lead on the the business side, and then take over from from design, perspective.
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Ruben: For sure. There's lots to say for a design.
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Chris Danells: Yeah, so I won't. I won't get in the way of that but very quickly I'd just say, with the with our business hat on.
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Chris Danells: there's kind of 2 factors that can kind of get in the way or make it challenging to kind of evolve and and involve
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Chris Danells: the client experience and really kind of dive into some more innovative approaches and tools that may be available in the marketplace. One of them is the cost of doing business. So there's a lot of innovation. Fintechs are probably a little. The Fintech space is much larger in the Us.
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Chris Danells: When we start when we talk to partners or potential partners from from from south of the border. The challenges is, our market is much smaller. So you know the rule of thumb. It's about a 10th of what the Us. But the license fees are coming in at the Us. Level. And so, so realistically, you know the business case, it's it's very hard to build a business case. You have pricing. Pricing models are not localized, and then we have also.
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Chris Danells: you know, we can't ignore the fact that Canadians are generally just more conservative, like we're we're not mavericks and and going out. And when you see Robo advice, it's it's slowly but surely kind of incrementally getting getting larger and larger in in terms of share of assets in the industry. But it's still relatively small
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Chris Danells: in comparison to what's going on in the Us. And then just the proclivity, like the just, the spirit of entrepreneurship.
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Chris Danells: the willingness to adopt early, far greater tolerance in the States, or willingness to do so, and so that really gets in the way of of
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Chris Danells: really going fast forward, or being a little bit more aggressive in terms of the types of tools and the type of innovation that we can implement. And then
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Chris Danells: Ruben feel free to add on from some other design challenges.
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Ruben: Yeah, well, I mean credit where credit is due. I think the United States really has us really adopted that sort of ethos of what's it? Move fast, break things. And you know that's very commendable. I think the environment in Canada as well. It it can be quite limited in the way that we have to adhere very strictly, especially as a large player in the financial space to
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Ruben: accessibility standards as set up by the Government. And this is actually an increasing issue in the United States as well. I recently read an article about sites like e-commerce sites. Small players get like just selling
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Ruben: regular items and wares getting hit with lawsuits because their websites aren't accessible.
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Ruben: So obviously, the Bank of Montreal has to be very diligent in making sure our sites adhere to standards, but also and this is, you know, my design product. Feel good hat
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Ruben: fundamentally, being able to provide a very essential service to all members of society.
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Tim Baker: Yep.
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Ruben: So there's the accessibility piece. But then there's like the there's the language piece as well, right? Because we are a bilingual country, and we for every page that we design in English. We also have to design it in French.
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Ruben: And so, you know.
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Ruben: a specific component or button. That would be 2 words or 48 pixels in length, in English, is all of a sudden, you know a sentence in French, and it takes up the entire width of the screen. So we really have to keep our heads on a swivel. Really make sure that we are addressing all these different factors. I can go into more specifics, but I just wanted to leave it there, for now.
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Tim Baker: Yeah, no, we'll. We'll we'll share the product a bit later on. But it I've never really. I was aware of in the Us. The American Disability Act, and I was aware of that. I think you know that set that set the bar in the Us. And I think Chris is going to get into this in a bit more detail. But I've never really thought about.
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Tim Baker: you know, actually having the data change and the tags change. And the field names change, you know. I thought oh, you just have to, you know. Change, you know. Put some French on the top, of course, that all the disclaimers have to change as well. So you're really
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Tim Baker: designing a product, for Canada is almost like designing one half or 2 products.
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Ruben: I would. Actually, I'd actually add to that and say that there's like another layer of product as well. Right when we look at the accessibility space I mentioned, you know, when we design a page in English, we also have to design it in French. Well, there's a layer beneath that as well because you have to create aria labels for screen readers. You have to create different types of navigation for keyboard users. So you do that in English.
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Ruben: So that's a sub layer, let's say to the experience, and then you have to do that same thing in French. So you have to translate labels that a vast majority of users would never see you have to keep these considerations in mind. Does that make sense from a cognitive standpoint? Do these things actually create a cohesive user experience. And you know, credit to the folks at Xpero. I think you guys really did a great job at listening to a lot of our feedback. I think that was probably the main sticking point.
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Tim Baker: So you said 2 things there, you said screen, reader. So let me to explain what a screen reader is, and area labels
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Tim Baker: which I think is like it's. It's something embedded in the code that helps to make this stuff work. Can you just kind of explain what those 2 things are?
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Ruben: Absolutely. So, you know.
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Ruben: for visually impaired users, there's different levels of visual impairment. So you have color blind users for that. You really have to be aware of contrast color.
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Ruben: Then there are users who have like that are hard of sight. So you have to make sure that text, or whatever elements you have on the page can be enlarged to 200%, then it goes even further. You have users who literally can't see anything, and they rely on a keyboard by pressing tab to navigate through the entire page every single element, and they can't read the buttons that we can read on the page. And so you have specific labels that we have to very thoughtfully design
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Ruben: with the help of our content writers, these labels that read out to the user. And this is on the code level. As you mentioned, Tim, they read out to the users what they're tabbing through, what they're pressing tab through, and it tells them.
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Ruben: because they can't see
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Ruben: what they're selecting at that point.
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Tim Baker: And I remember talking to there's a whole ecosystem of firms that
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Tim Baker: will audit your site. For example, I was talking to someone, and they were saying
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Tim Baker: I was explaining that we're building out the screening capability. And he said, grids and screeners are particularly hard and not well done.
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Tim Baker: so that to me.
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Tim Baker: I thought, okay, we're up for the challenge. We want to actually do it, because, you know, on the business side that you know, something that's hard creates a moat, right? So I was really delighted that you guys really engaged with us, and we love the feedback.
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Tim Baker: So what I want to do. That's probably a good queue up for Chris, because, I, Chris, you've put together a few slides, but I think we also want to see a demo not only of our generic solution. So what part of our approach is.
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Tim Baker: you know, as we're as we're as we're working with Morningstar, there are many different implementations of screeners, mutual fund screeners and equity screeners
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Tim Baker: and rightfully clients have made choices about how they want to do things, you know, for every B. Mode. There's an Rbc. And there's A, you know, there's 10 other banks, and they want to have different flavors.
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Tim Baker: So we've also had to balance. How do we? How do we support multiple clients and those flavors? So we'll talk a little bit about configurability.
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Tim Baker: And show you our generic screener. But also you know what we what we built with you, you guys. So, Chris, why don't you just take us through some of those slides. And I'd love you guys to kind of chip in. We are going to double click on this accessibility thing as well. So we'll definitely want your input on that.
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Chris LaCava: Yeah, absolutely. So.
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Chris LaCava: A lot of the solutions that we build at Expera, including the the one that we worked with. With Chris and Rubens team is built on top of a framework and that framework is a set of what we like to call accelerators components that we can put together and configure very quickly to build a highly customizable solution. So we call that expera connected finance.
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Chris LaCava: A lot of those components are performance charts or a set of screeners and watch list capabilities, but we think of them mainly as like Lego blocks that we snap together to build a very specific solution for a very specific user journey.
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Chris LaCava: And and I think Ruben touched on this earlier and and studied quite eloquently. Really, that that user journey has to be very specific to the persona that we're targeting. And that means that when you're talking about accessibility
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Chris LaCava: you know, you really have to think about cognitive load and performance and a lot of other factors, language and form factor for that specific set of users. And that means these tools have to be very flexible and very configurable, otherwise we would be building this stuff custom over and over again, and we wouldn't get the benefit of that acceleration and continued maintenance. So it's we're kind of trying to balance those those 2
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Chris LaCava: things to, to basically get the best of both worlds, something that you get the benefit of a
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Chris LaCava: of a product, but also the the customizable approach
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Chris LaCava: of something that's highly configurable and.
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Ruben: And I'd actually love to chime in there for a second. I wonder when you folks 1st presented these screens to me, you had done a really thorough analysis of our own screeners, our own design system. And by the time I got my eyes on it, you know you you had established a pretty clear pattern based on what Bmo values. So what we brought really to the table was kind of advocating for that user mindset that you mentioned before, and that meant just configuring a couple of things, tweaking things here and there
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Ruben: to make sure that it was consistent with our users. Mental model. So really like Diego. I don't know if he's on the call, but I want to give him a shout out as well. I think he did a really good job, and he pivoted really well with everything.
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Tim Baker: I think the other thing.
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Chris LaCava: That's.
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Tim Baker: Sorry, Chris, is, it allows us to iterate fast with the client. So instead of going away and coming back 3 months later and saying, Hey, we built this thing. What do you think? And it's like, Oh, it's terrible! We actually, we can configure we can get something up, stood up in a matter of a few days, and then we can go into that back and forth, and that that was as I observed, that on the business side. That was an incredibly
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Tim Baker: dynamic experience, and it was great to have a partner like Demo to actually give us the feedback. We could then adjust and tweak. And I think that helped us create a better outcome, you know, for you guys.
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Tim Baker: yeah.
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Chris Danells: And I'll just quickly add. And and, Chris, you mentioned the idea of having a product. And nice thing is that product has a has a roadmap and a life, and we get to benefit from evolution there too. So while we can can make something that's somewhat bespoke.
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Chris Danells: we get to enjoy any further enhancements that come.
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Tim Baker: Got me.
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Chris Danells: So that's an ideal balance of the of the 2.
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Tim Baker: That's that's a great point, and you know, and and I think we've got a number of those features that we might be able to show you as well which we can now turn on when your clients are ready.
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Chris Danells: Exactly.
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Tim Baker: Not everyone wants to do a big bang, kick, bang, and and flip to the latest and greatest. So there's definitely a nice pipeline of stuff to come.
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Tim Baker: Go ahead, Chris.
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Chris LaCava: Yeah, I I mean, I was just gonna say that. What you all are describing is baked into our engagement model, which this is a a example of we really start with that discovery and design and configuration step that Ruben mentioned, because we know that
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Chris LaCava: our our set of functionality is going to fall into a very specific context, and that it has to be flexible enough to to fall into that context, to fit in into that user journey, or it's going to stick out like a sore thumb. And from an accessibility standpoint.
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Chris LaCava: if it's disjointed, that is, gonna create a lot of issues, especially when we're talking about keyboard navigation.
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Chris LaCava: Yeah.
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Chris LaCava: our solution doesn't in a solution
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Chris LaCava: in a way that matches with that. It's just going to be very rare for the able to transition between looking at a screener versus whatever for or after that experience. So we.
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Tim Baker: Yes, you're breaking up a little bit. I don't know whether you're on the wrong Wi-fi connection.
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Tim Baker: Your video is frozen. I don't know whether there's any tweaks you want to make before we do the demo.
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Chris LaCava: The Internet is actually
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Chris LaCava: so hopefully, it'll it'll hold together before.
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Tim Baker: All right. Let's.
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Chris LaCava: Right after the demo.
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Tim Baker: Okay. Fingers crossed. Yes, thanks, Ruben.
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Tim Baker: carry on.
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Tim Baker: And then we lost him.
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Ruben: Our classrooms.
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Tim Baker: Well, let's.
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Chris Danells: Resetting.
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Tim Baker: Yeah, I think that makes sense, because I think when we when we do a live demo, it will be a live demo. There we go. He's back.
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Chris LaCava: Sorry guys, that there's some there's some Internet issues in this this part of Texas, apparently.
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Tim Baker: Oh, okay.
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Chris LaCava: Let me let me just share.
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Tim Baker: Actually, you've come back crystal clear. So. Oh, yeah.
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Chris LaCava: Great
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Chris LaCava: crush figures. Hopefully. You'll say that way.
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Chris Danells: Alright!
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Chris LaCava: Okay, so I I'm not sure if it if it if it came through a little bit. I was just saying that that. Our engagement model front loads a lot of that. A lot of what Ruben and Chris talked about as far as just understanding user journey and making sure that the host system that we we fall into is a seamless kind of experience. And we're not creating more disjointed ex experiences and and accessibility issues because of that.
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Chris LaCava: and I just want to underscore a couple of things that that Ruben mentioned earlier as well in that the the landscape around the different standards is actually kind of a moving target. And from a vendor standpoint it's really, really hard to build a solution that can actually fit into all of these types of
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Chris LaCava: of of different you know, sets of standards. And so, for example, the Wcag standards here in the Us. That outlines some of the things that the Ada put forth is similar, but different to some of the things that we have to adhere to. For example, with Aota, and in in Canada or Ea, in Europe. So to build a system around this, it has to be very flexible, so we had the opportunity to be able to collaborate with
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Chris LaCava: The Bmo accessibility team and in in our
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Chris LaCava: our software was able to conform to a lot of the very specific standards that were set there that differ from other regions. So I think
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Chris LaCava: that was both a challenge, but also very rewarding to be able to to hit a lot of the, you know, a lot of those complexities. And when we get into the demo hopefully, we'll be able to show a compare and contrast of things that we had to do specifically to meet those specific standards.
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Chris LaCava: And then, just just to kind of underscore that there's not really a single certification or governing body that you can say we are. We are certified in accessibility across these standards. Now there are 3rd party certifications, and there there are very reputable companies that will give you a certification that encompass encompasses a lot of those those standards. But
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Chris LaCava: it's not. It's not a governing body per Se. And therefore it's there's always some gray area, and there's some interpretation there. And again, that's a lot of the flexibility that we have to go through, and I'll throw that out to the group. You all experienced that kind of process where we were looking at those standards. We were understanding your interpretation of them Canada's interpretation at large, and then trying to see
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Chris LaCava: how we could accommodate both those standards. But then keep keep in compliance with other other things that we were. We were looking at.
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Ruben: Well, I would like to say one thing.
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Ruben: And again, it's my feel good product, user hat
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Ruben: coming on my head. I
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Ruben: there are so many different standards out there.
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Ruben: Fundamentally, we're trying to address a need, a need from our users.
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Ruben: and one of the best ways we could possibly.
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Ruben: you know, get in that mindset is to actually speak to people with different types of impairments or disabilities or needs. I had the benefit of sitting in on an interview with our research team. Because again, we're really dedicated to making sure that we provide for our users. I had the benefit of sitting in on a research session, and it was somebody who
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Ruben: they were wheelchair bound. They still had use of their hands.
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Ruben: but they couldn't use a mouse for an extended period of time and watching them navigate through our
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Ruben: our platform was really incredibly eye-opening, so there are lots of different standards. But the best way we can we can really execute is to understand our users and meet them where they need to be met.
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Chris LaCava: It's a really good point. And I think, like
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Chris LaCava: I've seen where
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Chris LaCava: where a lot of digital solutions adhere to the letter of the standards, but still
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Chris LaCava: not very usable. For anyone, even the the accessibility standards that support, you know, certain certain restrictions, or you know, or whatever that
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Chris LaCava: Those those folks don't have a good experience, nor do do anyone else. Sometimes, if you just look at the letter of the standard and don't really key into the specific user needs. And and look at the spirit, not just the letter.
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Chris LaCava: for sure.
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Chris LaCava: another thing I want to just underscore on this stuff is that the technology is moving really, really quickly and form factors and a lot of other things taken into account there, it's really, really hard to
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Chris LaCava: make things that are future proof. And and this configuration layer helps us actually do that and and react very quickly in the in the connected platform. But even still the standards just lag. So there are there are gray areas when we talk about different form factors and
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Chris LaCava: you know, even like multilingual types of operations. And how you show that in certain cultural contexts, for example, how new versions of rich media are coming into to play, and how those.
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Chris LaCava: and how those adhere to some of those standards and to Ruben's point, maybe not even just the standards, but the the holistic experience itself. And I think that stuff kind of builds up and adds to a lot of that cognitive load and performance issues that are at the heart of a lot of accessibility issues whether they're they're they're noted in the standards or not explicitly. So that's another thing that we we took into account. I think
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Chris LaCava: we talked to you all as we went through that design process and tried to figure out how flexible could we make this so as new as new things come online. We could, we could elegantly.
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Chris LaCava: you know, kind of move with them and take advantage of a lot of new technology without without necessarily crossing. You know any lines with with some of the accessibility guidelines that are out there.
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Tim Baker: So we've had one question on which I'm sure you're going to show. But the question is French or French Canadian, but maybe we hold that until unless, Chris, you want to. Chris, do you want to comment on that? But it's a good question.
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Chris Danells: Yeah, I saw the question. I it it's
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Chris Danells: probably French Canadian is the the descriptor that you would find in any sort of drop or translation menu. We do localize here. So while there's some Parisian speaking French in Canada, there's probably not in the tens of thousands. So we do localize for the for the market. And I think the second part of the question is using AI and
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Chris Danells: probably not. There's definitely translation tools and engines that are well known, that just kind of do reference swaps. And I would be sure that translation
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Chris Danells: that is a starting point, and then finesse based on how the translation.
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Tim Baker: Yeah, we do translation.
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Chris Danells: But looks like.
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Tim Baker: We were double checking with your team. Every French word we put in, we said, is this the is this the right French word for this.
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Chris Danells: Yeah, you'd be surprised, like, certain terms is definitely there's a little nuance for sure.
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Chris LaCava: Yeah, especially financial terms. And I think, like, there are very, very specific things that don't translate directly, and a lot in in as good as generative. AI. And a lot of those large language models are getting at understanding sent sentiment, I think, like the specifics of a lot of domains just don't come through. And we definitely experienced that with you all, as we translated this stuff, and and configured it for the various language requirements.
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Chris Danells: 100%.
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Chris LaCava: Just a couple of notes on our philosophy around the platform, and what we brought to the project as we as we worked with you, you all at Bmo through this. It really makes a lot of sense to think accessibility 1st when you're building stuff up, and that's it really at the heart of of our
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Chris LaCava: process as well as our technology.
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Chris LaCava: It is really really hard.
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Chris LaCava: Oh.
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Tim Baker: You're break. Which is that?
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Chris LaCava: Yeah.
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Chris LaCava: Oh, better.
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Tim Baker: Say something.
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Chris Danells: Yeah, you're frozen.
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Tim Baker: You know.
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Chris LaCava: Am IA doctor?
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Tim Baker: Oh, okay.
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Chris Danells: And you're back.
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Tim Baker: Rebecca.
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Chris LaCava: Okay, I'm gonna I'll turn off my video. Maybe hopefully.
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Chris Danells: Yeah, that might make sense.
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Chris LaCava: Yeah.
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Chris LaCava: if if you all didn't catch it. I was just saying that localization
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Chris LaCava: is as as Ruben mentioned at the heart of accessibility as well. Because
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Chris LaCava: when you are dealing with screen readers, that stuff also has to be localized. And so you have to take a lot of that stuff into consideration as well as it's just general democratization and access to information.
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Chris LaCava: It's under that umbrella. So that also is is baked into our our process
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Chris LaCava: and our technology
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Chris LaCava: form factors as well. We kind of talked about some of that cognitive load aspects. And as that screen gets smaller. Those controls can get harder, and people with dexterity challenges, for example, or even sight impairment. It's really, it's really, really hard, as things get smaller or get bigger on giant screens in some cases. So we, we really think about some of that that stuff as we work through this stuff with you all. And
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Chris LaCava: it it's it's delivered in multiple different containers. Sometimes. Sometimes it's web delivered, sometimes it's delivered in a a certain container like openfin here, or you know, mobile form factor, or what have you? So we have to be flexible as well, and take that into account with a lot of these accessibility standards, and I'll just say one more thing before we open it up to discussion. Maybe get into a little bit of demo.
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Chris LaCava: these financial tools more and more often are becoming interoperable with each other, sometimes across different
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Chris LaCava: delivery mechanisms. So that is its own challenge around accessibility, because things not only change focus, perhaps within one window, but can change, focus over multiple windows.
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Chris LaCava: How
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Chris LaCava: how do you deal with things like when someone can't necessarily see that focus has been changed. You have to tell them, and it's in. It's in multiple windows, sometimes across stops.
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Chris LaCava: So I'll pause there and and open discussion a little bit, and then we can. We can maybe jump into a little bit of demo and look at the look at some of this stuff.
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Tim Baker: Great thanks, Chris. One other thing occurred to me, and I've I've seen this across many of our clients, actually where they've implemented.
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Tim Baker: you know a solution here, for their client facing
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Tim Baker: customers and their financial advisors have a different, a completely different product that's doing the same thing.
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Tim Baker: And so that financial advisor has to be aware of what the client their clients seeing and then to go. Okay, now I've got to read. I've got to redo that thing in my thing. So I think taking a much more componentized approach
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Tim Baker: means that you can recycle these components, and you can certainly have more advanced versions. I mean some of the stuff we're doing
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Tim Baker: with morning staff and portfolio analytics, and that that tools that you'd primarily want in the hands of a furniture advisor. But we can do versions of those using the same software
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Tim Baker: so that overall back to your earlier point, Chris, this all lowers the cost. To do this. It means that people aren't building everything from scratch every time.
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Tim Baker: So we've got the benefit of a platform approach. But then
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Tim Baker: a platform that's agnostic to the container that you're then delivering the solution in that, then significantly lowers the cost of doing this. So you don't have 3 screeners. You have one screener. You don't have a screener for each security class. It's the same one but configured for fixed income, or for or for crypto, or for whatever so suddenly you start to get a lot of scale benefits as a customer.
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Tim Baker: So I'm a i'm a little bit worried. But I think we're gonna try and do a demo. Oh, it looks like it's working.
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Chris LaCava: Yeah, yeah, it's up.
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Tim Baker: So take us through, and if it if it's helpful, I can talk through some of this, too. If the audio it keeps breaking up.
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Chris LaCava: Yeah, absolutely. Just just let me know if it breaks up. I seem to be hearing you guys just fine. I think it's just it's just on my side.
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Chris LaCava: okay, so this is our this is a screener. This is the default configuration that that w without any kind of customization or implementation into another solution or context. This is what kind of comes out of the box of the of our screener
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Chris LaCava: and this. This happens to be loading some some security information securities, information stocks here. From the morningstar feed. So
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Chris LaCava: with this screener is highly configurable, but in its default form it is it's it's horizontal and vertical scrolling. It is virtualized, and it has a set of filter capabilities that come over on the left hand side here, and if you click on any of these will we will load detail information here. In this case, performance charts and an overview on this particular security. So
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Chris LaCava: this is the overall general pattern layout it's pinned to the W. Cag. 2 2 dot 2 triple a standard as we interpret it, and has a as it's been audited.
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Chris LaCava: And so this is kind of the the standard baseline that we work with
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Chris LaCava: and it is it is keyboard navigable. So if we go through here and we select something or tab through, it's going to go through. And if I had a screen reader on, for example, it would read all this stuff through, and as I think this came up earlier, but
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Chris LaCava: grids are very, very challenging. It turns out, with keyboard navigation, especially modern grids with different renderings. Inside it could be there could be nested information. There could be progressively disclosed information that's not entirely apparent from the keyboard navigation. So it is. It's really, really
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Chris LaCava: It's it's a challenge to to to hit this in any standard
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Chris LaCava: and to Ruben's Point in a way that the end, the particular end user, is going to understand it, let alone across multiple standards.
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Chris LaCava: So I'll I'll highlight a couple of of enhancements that we made
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Chris LaCava: on the Bemo version of the screener, which is what we're looking at here.
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Chris LaCava: and what we've got is basically a a fixed view. So that's the 1st thing that changed between our implementation and the host implementation, which was, we expand to 100% of the window by default. But in the particular
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Chris LaCava: in the particular host context that that we're looking at here, it's a fixed with what does that mean? It means that a lot of things that that could utilize that that kind of like
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Chris LaCava: stretched out space now have now have to be pinned to very specific things, and we have different real estate options that we have to take into account and take into account some of that cognitive load. So, for example.
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Chris LaCava: a lot of the mechanisms that were panels now are popovers. Some of the
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Chris LaCava: some of the the standards in aota versus Wcag, 2.2 are a little bit different around virtual scrolling and tables. So we have pagination here. That's much more explicit. And there is always this kind of like
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Chris LaCava: interoperability and layout and cognitive load journey that we have to go through along with the teams. And this is something that we did with Ruben and Team. And then with some of the accessibility audits that we did specifically for with Bmo through this solution as we implemented it. So that's there's a few different things. I wanted to highlight but those are kind of like at a high level. Some of the considerations. And you can see the difference between the 2 solutions.
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Tim Baker: And we're in. We're in French right now, are we?
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Tim Baker: Yes, we are.
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Chris LaCava: We are in. We are in French. Yes, yeah. So.
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Ruben: I I just like to point out one thing. I'm sorry, Tim. Just to expand on what Chris said. You know, we talked about scrolls. We talked about
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Ruben: panels of control having focus states. Those are all really important things, especially to users based on our research and based on our internal accessibility teams feedback.
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Ruben: We really want to be intentional with not.
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Ruben: we're not overloading a user with too much information. So that when they're focused on a specific control, they can navigate out of it very easily. So it's really about being able to maneuver as fast as possible.
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Ruben: while also balancing that with the needs of users who are capable of using a mouse to the fullest degree.
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Tim Baker: Yeah, that's a great point. And I think one of the things that we saw we've seen in lots of implementations was, you would. For example, we're looking here at a fund view.
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Tim Baker: and when you navigate back from a fun view, you lose your screen.
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Tim Baker: So there's a lot of that kind of behavior behavioral issues that we, you know, we've seen across the board.
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Tim Baker: Also, this ability to be able to do a smart what we call a smart filter, but being able to combine a number of filters and sorts into one button
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Tim Baker: and that's really important.
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Tim Baker: one for the user standpoint, because quite often manipulating all of these screens and filters is really someone trying to express something quite simple.
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Tim Baker: And so being able to configure a smart view. And if you think about a smart view or smart filter, you're going okay. I want to look at this set of data. I want to filter by these 3 parameters, and then I want to sort that column in that view. So for a human to go through all those steps, it's quite hard but what we've done is we've allowed through configuration, you guys and our clients in general to be able to summarize very common sets of requirements into one dropdown and hit the button.
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Tim Baker: and then, obviously for advanced users, they can then go in and edit those edit those filters. So so just we kind of thinking some of those things, and we've seen examples from other clients where
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Tim Baker: the way they'll solve for that is, have 10 pages, and they'll all look slightly different, so some of them will have buttons, and some of them will have filters. So we've tried to kind of reimagine the whole thing, and then allow you the client.
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Tim Baker: you know, to be able to configure the column. The columns, the category names pretty much. Everything on this page can be configured. Now we're looking at a side by side. View.
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Tim Baker: And, as you say, Ruben, so you know some in a more traditional trading floor. Capital market floor, you know, we might want those panels to actually be, you know, pop out on the sides.
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Ruben: Those are hugely beneficial. Honestly, I kind of getting forward thinking here, but in a perfect universe we get some sort of.
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Ruben: and I hate to be the AI guy, some sort of like very
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Ruben: succinct, powerful
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Ruben: AI tool that can actually.
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Ruben: very holistically provide users with accessibility issues the same operability as somebody using.
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Ruben: you know, their hands, or that aren't cognitively impaired. That would be the best.
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Tim Baker: Chris. I don't know whether you've got it, but it'd be good to show some of the interoperability, so we've got so the screener is very tightly integrated now with that mutual fund data which I think is very powerful. I know the morning staff folks really like it, but but we we already work. We're also working with Dow Jones, for example, we're reimagining venues and events experience, and we're doing it using this openfin or this Fdc 3 standard that allows components to talk to each other.
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Tim Baker: So yeah, great. So I'm glad you've got this up so that this shows another level
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Tim Baker: that we're trying to think about this world. So here you're looking at a screener.
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Tim Baker: You're clicking on Nvidia, and a separate chart app which could be from a 3rd party. This happens to be one that we've built
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Tim Baker: is listening to the screener and then
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Tim Baker: part. Unfortunately, the Internet's a little bit slow at your end, Chris, but there's no
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Tim Baker: the Nvidia
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Tim Baker: chart, but also it's pulled up the Nvidia in this case the events coming up for Nvidia.
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Tim Baker: So, having this kind of
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Tim Baker: Lego blocks. Approach is allowing us to work with clients and really start to think about workflows.
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Tim Baker: A customer journeys without building monolithic applications that we can take a much more. And obviously, we're recycling these components. And we've I don't think I'm not sure if you can share on this one, but we can also apply a dark mode, for example.
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Tim Baker: And so we can change. You know, a lot of traders like to a lot of a lot of the pro users like to. I quite like dark mode as well. So.
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Ruben: Specifically proven that dark mode enhances your trading ability by.
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Tim Baker: That's right. Yes, it makes you smart.
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Tim Baker: There you go. So there's dark mode. So a lot of these, in fact, all of these all, all of what you're seeing here is configurable. So having those options to have the side panels having them pop up, having
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Tim Baker: top level navigation, so we're very excited now about our client engagement and hats off to you guys for helping us really kind of
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Tim Baker: yeah fine tune all of this. But it means that we can now deliver
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Tim Baker: mass customisable experiences for clients without having to build everything from scratch, and that really means we can keep the price point down
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Tim Baker: and then the accessibility piece. I think there are still some firms out there that you know are trying to take this on themselves, and very often it's like we didn't realize how hard this stuff is. So we've solved for it once for all of our clients, and I think that makes for a much more scalable approach. And obviously, in this case, we're we're pre plumbed into to Morningstar. But the platform can can plug into internal data.
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Tim Baker: You know. Obviously, you've got clients who you have information on them like their holdings, so integrating their actual holdings of a fund into the screener is relatively trivial because of the way that these platforms being built.
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Tim Baker: Yeah, anything else to demo from your side, Chris.
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Chris LaCava: I I think I'll quit while while I'm ahead.
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Tim Baker: So, Ruben, just to wrap up you. You mentioned that magical word AI, and I've just come away from a 3 day conference, and every other panel was talking about AI. And actually, Christy, we we did a webinar a while back, where we were talking about the screener experience.
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Tim Baker: Able to talk to your screener. You know, we still think that that's a that's 1 direction that that we think this will go, which is, instead of plugging numbers in and filtering and figuring out what the right inputs are that you actually have a conversation with your
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Tim Baker: you know with with your data. So any any thoughts from your side on on where that might go, Reuben, it sounds like you had some interesting thoughts.
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Ruben: I love Chris. Oh, you want me to go?
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Ruben: Okay, I can.
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Ruben: You know.
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Ruben: I think you alluded to this before. There are still lots of gaps with the power of large language models. They can't really understand the context of language
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Ruben: very well. Yet
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Ruben: we are also at a point. I mean, just look at Siri, for example, on your iphone, where you have to be very specific.
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Ruben: and you can't make mistakes, and in your prompts
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Ruben: hopefully
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Ruben: in sometime in the future we can get to a point, as you said, Tim, that where we're able to actually have a conversation with our user interface and get data that way. Because this is fundamentally what a screener is about. It's understanding data
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Ruben: whittling it down to the base elements that you need to get, and then making an informed decision from that data.
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Ruben: So I think large language models. AI Agi is poised to really address that pain point
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Ruben: in terms of accessibility.
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Chris Danells: Yeah. And I agree. And and what we've talked about before, Tim, use natural language versus financial jargon.
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Chris Danells: Being to have a little bit of a conversation with a tool, and something that's equally important. We we alluded to it earlier is is not, look at it as stock screener and a mutual fund screener. It's it's an investment kind of generator based on just the conversation that I'm having. I am long term investor. I'm this year old. This is my time horizon. I'm going to need this much cash, and I have, you know, moderate
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Chris Danells: tolerance for risk. We prefer direct equities versus baskets of goods.
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Chris Danells: Show me some options right? And then.
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Ruben: You know what though, Chris? I am sure there's a room full of lawyers right now who are sweating profusely at this prospect.
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Chris Danells: Well, I mean this, is it? So? You have to think about the the product, use case. And if and the licensing, of course, right. We don't want to necessarily be going out with advice. But screeners are arguably you know.
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Chris Danells: they're a little bit of a self serve investment tool.
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Chris Danells: Yeah, there's probably ways for us to configure something, or at least break what I, where I see the potential is just breaking away from filters and having to select 50 different meta, meta meta filters and literally just input it through natural language.
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Tim Baker: Yeah, totally agree. And we, you know we've done. We've done some design work on on that, too. But I do think there is this artificial separation between managed funds and self directed. And you know, if you you know, and and model portfolios and picking stocks, and it's like one or the other.
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Tim Baker: whereas I think what you're alluding to Chris is that you know you should be able to create it should be a continuum.
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Tim Baker: and you shouldn't. You shouldn't have to go. I want to buy an equity. Now, it should be okay. What's the context of that?
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Tim Baker: But maybe you want to buy your equity, in which case that's fine, but.
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Chris Danells: I mean, there's ways to where ways to to kind of skin that one for sure. And and stay with it. Stay out of jail. But I do think I do think there's there. There's huge opportunity to kind of let go of some of the traditional constructs for some of these tools, and then and and again move to something that's a little bit more friendly for
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Chris Danells: for the average person.
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Tim Baker: Well, I wanna I wanna thank you guys, one for being a customer, but also for being on this journey with us. Thank you for doing the webinar and it was obviously, you know your time is valuable and sharing your experience. And and you know, looking forward to doing more things with you.
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Tim Baker: President. Any other thoughts from your side. Chris Lucava.
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Chris LaCava: Maybe just one addition to you know, using AI for insights, I think. Like what we.
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Chris LaCava: what what we encountered with a lot of this financial
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Chris LaCava: data. visualization like, so around complex visualizations, it's really, really hard to give context around that for anyone. But definitely, someone that's sight impaired. And using a screen. Reader, I think that's probably something where a lot of that contextualization summarization may be able to be in come into play as this technology matures.
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Tim Baker: All those standards were conceived before. AI. Right, I think if they were to start again, there would probably be, you know, a much simpler, more powerful AI solution.
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Chris LaCava: Yeah, absolutely.
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Tim Baker: Guys, thanks again for your time. Appreciate it.
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Chris Danells: Very welcome.
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Tim Baker: No, no additional questions, but we'll if any come in, we'll let you know.
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Ruben: Sounds good.
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Tim Baker: Alright! Thanks everyone. Bye.
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